In 1979, Harvard psychologist Suzanne Cook-Greuter, while conducting tests on individuals to measure their psychological development, noticed something peculiar: one participant seemed to be expressing a new, more highly evolved sense of self that didn’t fit into any of the existing categories she was testing for. This new self-sense was more fluid, intuitive, and adaptable to changing circumstances. Her discovery led to the identification of two higher, more integral stages of psychological development—now known as “magician” and “unitive”—which would become the focus of her life's work.

In this touching audio interview with WIE's Elizabeth Debold, a Harvard-trained developmental psychologist herself, Cook-Greuter describes the subtle characteristics of these higher stages, which have helped shape the models of human development created by Ken Wilber and other integral minds. As their conversation deepens, these two leading integral thinkers also explore the mysterious curiosity that has driven their interest in higher development and reveal how their understanding of the furthest reaches of human potential has transformed each of their lives.

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